Curse

Xenomortis · Aug 02, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Mesmers are Imo the best support/damage/versatile player in the team depending on the build.

No. I cannot agree to this. Whilst I have a bias towards necromancers and against mesmers, I'll try to be objective.
What I say more or less reflects PvE only. But that's ok, because it seems what I'm answering is more or less PvE only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Echo'd Clumsiness and wandering eye gives HUGE armor ignoring damage,as well as insane anti melee, this is priceless in HM where you can prevent a whole group from getting off hard hitting attacks.

It isn't "huge" so much. These two are among the more powerful and useful of the reactive hexes because they prevent damage and deal it, but the effect is one shot. Wandering Eye only prevents one attack and is therefore inferior to Clumsiness. But both pale in comparison to Reckless Haste for damage prevention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

CoP is 50 AoE damage and 100 degen over time

CoP is a PvE skill that is up for grabs for any /Me. It's also been nerfed a bit and the degen is of little use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Signet of Illusions is the most Lol skill, Pvp and PvE

Gimmicky at best, but fun at times. The same is true of a lot of builds for lots of professions though and it isn't something I'd put forwards as a reason to make a mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Energy surge, another huge armor ignoring skill

One time AoE nuke with a 2 second cast time (less with FC) and a 20 second recharge? Perhaps you could throw together a nuker build with this, but it'll be weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Fevered Dreams/Extend Conditions: Have a ranger in your team? Say hello to perma PvE daze

Roll a necro. Take advantage of Soul Reaping. Run FD without the need for energy crutches or issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Fast casting ele, need I say more?

Mesmers can take the roles of eles and necros in PvP, this is known. But in PvE, their primary is far less valuable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Deleting a mesmer=bad

If you honestly don't want to pay for an extra character slot, but really want to roll that Necro, Warrior, Monk or Ele and are uninterested in PvP; go ahead, delete that mesmer.

One real problem for Mesmers in PvE, is that their primary attribute isn't amazingly useful and in fact, their style of play is usually ill-suited to a PvE environment. Only in some instances are they useful enough to merit a spot in a team.

Of course you can run a nuker type build, but so can everyone else and you don't stand out at all.

IronSheik · Aug 02, 2009, 09:59 PM // 21:59

If you think fast casting isn't useful in PvE then you just aren't looking at them right. You're telling me to roll a necro to play a fevered dreams build saying energy is the advantage, learn to manage the energy. I got off fevered and fragility whilst power draining that res chant while you just got your fevered off.

Yeah, any caster type can run a nuker build, but mesmers can run it in half the time? That means they're the same as everything else, right?

As for clumsiness/Wandering, 80 times X number of enemies is a lot of damage for a single caster, whilst also spamming Finish him and EVAS from AP in half the time a necro does

Cuilan · Aug 02, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I found fast casting nice because I'm less likely to waste a skill on a dying enemy and I'm less worried about canceling my skill because I need to move from danger.

Chthon · Aug 03, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

The main advantage for a mesmer primary over a necro primary on fevered dreams/extend condition builds is the freedom to go /E for blind.

Catchphrase · Aug 03, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

If you think fast casting isn't useful in PvE then you just aren't looking at them right. You're telling me to roll a necro to play a fevered dreams build saying energy is the advantage, learn to manage the energy. I got off fevered and fragility whilst power draining that res chant while you just got your fevered off.

Nope. FC's appeal diminish alot in PvE, you don't need to invest alot in it to still do your job efficiently especially with Mindbender. So I don't see any reason to raise FC past 5. And interruption is a surplus rather than mandatory role for mesmer because of the ridiculous HM bonus given to mobs. I'd rather perma daze and hex, leaving the interrupting done by the martial professions.

Link6590 · Aug 03, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Wait.. What shutdown does a rit have? Only Wonderlust/Earthbind and weapon of shadow right? Idk about that... In PvP, maybe, but in PvE, I'd laugh at the attempt. If your comparing any class to shutdown, the only one with any real ground would be a necro with their Curses/Blood Magic spells.

Honestly, I don't like this arguement. If you don't like mesmers for whatever reason, then we aren't going to change your mind. If you love mesmers for whatever reason, then we still can't change your mind. I can't point out any real moving arguement to push the profession to the garabge or to its throne.

There is no other class that can compare to their strengths and it has no real weakness (besides that other professions can do certain roles better).

upier · Aug 03, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

If you think fast casting isn't useful in PvE then you just aren't looking at them right. You're telling me to roll a necro to play a fevered dreams build saying energy is the advantage, learn to manage the energy. I got off fevered and fragility whilst power draining that res chant while you just got your fevered off.

Yeah, any caster type can run a nuker build, but mesmers can run it in half the time? That means they're the same as everything else, right?

As for clumsiness/Wandering, 80 times X number of enemies is a lot of damage for a single caster, whilst also spamming Finish him and EVAS from AP in half the time a necro does

This would matter if you weren't playing in a party of 8.
The rest of the team still needs to contribute to the damage to take down a foe. So instead of casting simultaneously with the slow guys, you wait for the slow guys to finish.

Yes, good players will learn to manage their energy and shouldn't need SR. But with SR being in the game - it allows to good players to do things that shouldn't be possible and it allows bad players to do things they shouldn't be able to do.
FC does nothing of that sort. It's just fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Link6590

Wait.. What shutdown does a rit have? Only Wonderlust/Earthbind and weapon of shadow right? Idk about that...

It's not about quantity.
Why would you need all the various shutdown-options a mesmer has, when the guys are planted on their ass until they die and not being able to do anything?
(And it's not Wanderlust, it's PvE skills that provide the KDs.)

Still, this only matters when playing on a level most of us pretty much never do. When you have heroes and hench in your party, aren't high on consumables and don't have all the PvE titles maxed - this is just some nice theory. Most of us are playing on such a sub-par level most of the time that not having the best option just doesn't matter.
What should matter is if you enjoy the class - then you should play it. And if you don't - then don't bother.

Laughing Bat · Aug 03, 2009, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What should matter is if you enjoy the class - then you should play it. And if you don't - then don't bother.

I thought about posting about just how awesome mesmers are but that is probably the most intelligent thing I've seen in this entire debate.

draxynnic · Aug 03, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It's not about quantity.
Why would you need all the various shutdown-options a mesmer has, when the guys are planted on their ass until they die and not being able to do anything?
(And it's not Wanderlust, it's PvE skills that provide the KDs.)

In case it wasn't already obvious, this is assuming a party of actual humans, at which point you're getting up to eight YMLAD's, eight EVAS spammers, and a selection of other forms of knockdown.

Link6590 · Aug 04, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It's not about quantity.
Why would you need all the various shutdown-options a mesmer has, when the guys are planted on their ass until they die and not being able to do anything?
(And it's not Wanderlust, it's PvE skills that provide the KDs.)

No no, i'm talking about quality. KD is a great shutdown but wanderlust shutdown is extremely unreliable in all but very certain scenarios (defending a shrine from single targets).

And a mesmer usually carries diversion, blackout for shutdown (non elite

(backfire and empathy is for hate))

(I never mentioned anything about the PvE skills o_O..)

SaDuFam · Aug 04, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Mesmer is the best profession to support a discord H/H team. It has fast cast and high maintainable damage outputs build in PvE that no other profession can match (unless Anet starts nefing again). I like it so much that my other 9 profession chars have similar PvE skills built that can do similar maintainable damage outputs (normally a little lower) and of course without Fast Casting. I am farming Zaishen coins with all my 10 chars at the moment. The Zaishen gold reward is good too.

It is the most ecrutiating gaming experience for me palying GW without Fast Casting. It is like the target foe could have been terminated cleanly and quickly but slow casting has allowed a healer to save its butt for another few seconds and allow it to unload it last massive attack.

Chthon · Aug 04, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Link6590

Wait.. What shutdown does a rit have?

At 12+ Spawning Power a rit can maintain up to 5 copies of GDW. Add Earthbind.

Expherious · Aug 04, 2009, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Ive only once played with a good pve mesmer, it was amazing, can you say easy mode?

Winnies Bro · Aug 06, 2009, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Off:
Rotty isn't undead. The poor sod just looks like one.
So no double damage.

On:
Meh.
I LOVE the potential a mesmer has, I ABSOLUTELY hate the way his potential is interpreted in PvE.
It's not the mesmers, it's PvE why I almost never play my mesmer these days.

I know smiting skills dont do double damage against rotscale.

Ziv · Aug 06, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollygen

Mesmers are subtle. They're primarily there to annoy your foes, either through inturrupting, affecting a foe's energy, or penalising them for their actions. They're not there for the big yellow numbers, although they can do that as well. They're there to put pressure on a mob or party's support resorces, by reducing their effectiveness.

Let's say you're in a 4v4 scenario. One team has a mesmer as you describe. The mesmer "annoys" but never completely disables any of them. The team with the mesmer is obviously then at a disadvantage because they could have just had a nuker who could completely disable opponents by killing them. If a mesmer is only "subtly" influencing battle, then what was the point in bringing a mesmer when you could strongly influence battle with another class?

Heck, even if the mesmer completely disables one enemy, he's only breaking even and making the fight a 3v3. In order to actually gain an advantage he must completely disable one opponent and at least partially disable another.

Quote:

I have a mesmer and taken her a fair way through all campaigns, including finishing EoTN
There are easier professions to play. It helps if you've a bit of knowledge and experience with the game, as you'll be there to counter certain behaviours, which need you to be selective in your actions. Don't put Empathy on a caster, inturrupt the big hitting spells rather than the cheap low damage spamable stuff...things like that.

By the time you've looked at the spell and notice which one it is, then try to interrupt, then wait for lag + the 1/4th second cast time, the spell has already been cast. Furthermore, in pve you can only interrupt one mob at a time. Why even bother with that when there are groups of 10+ mobs? I've been trying to find a reason to use mesmer skills in pve and I can't since fire spells are just way more effective.

maxxfury · Aug 06, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

in pve you can only interrupt one mob at a time. Why even bother with that when there are groups of 10+ mobs? .

Note: Cry of Frustration and Tease. Aoe interupts.

ferv0r · Aug 07, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaDuFam

Mesmer is the best profession to support a discord H/H team. It has fast cast and high maintainable damage outputs build in PvE that no other profession can match (unless Anet starts nefing again). I like it so much that my other 9 profession chars have similar PvE skills built that can do similar maintainable damage outputs (normally a little lower) and of course without Fast Casting. I am farming Zaishen coins with all my 10 chars at the moment. The Zaishen gold reward is good too.

It is the most ecrutiating gaming experience for me palying GW without Fast Casting. It is like the target foe could have been terminated cleanly and quickly but slow casting has allowed a healer to save its butt for another few seconds and allow it to unload it last massive attack.

I agree completely, which is one major reason why I love my Mesmer.

People often say that necro is the best discord caller, due to their curses and SR. But I find that it's much easier with my mesmer. FC cover hexes. FC right before the mob dies. I just bring along auspicious for energy and I rarely run out. Throw around illusion or dom hexes while continuing to AP call and she's dishing out plenty of damage, too.

byteme! · Aug 07, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferv0r

I agree completely, which is one major reason why I love my Mesmer.

People often say that necro is the best discord caller, due to their curses and SR. But I find that it's much easier with my mesmer. FC cover hexes. FC right before the mob dies. I just bring along auspicious for energy and I rarely run out. Throw around illusion or dom hexes while continuing to AP call and she's dishing out plenty of damage, too.

When the best elite for a Mesmer is not even a Mesmer elite to begin with then you've got yourself a problem.

Mesmers are a PvP class for the most part where Edenial, Interupts, Shutdown etc....play a more prominent role.

In PvE the time and effort to Edenial, Interupt or Shutdown a foe is not necessary. With all that effort you could've just grabbed another profession and killed the foe instead. That's not to say Mesmer can't deal damage. But without AP the recharge on many of the GOOD skills is horrific. I mean a spell that can do 100+ Dmg sounds nice and all but when you throw in a 20 second recharge it really makes the DPS really really shitty and undesirable.

my .02

upier · Aug 07, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

When the best elite for a Mesmer is not even a Mesmer elite to begin with then you've got yourself a problem.

AP is the best elite for ANY offensive PvE caster with pretty much NOTHING in this game being able to compare to it. So it doesn't make sense to single out mesmers only.

draxynnic · Aug 07, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziv

Heck, even if the mesmer completely disables one enemy, he's only breaking even and making the fight a 3v3. In order to actually gain an advantage he must completely disable one opponent and at least partially disable another.

However, the Mesmer can usually be doing damage to that target while disabling it. So it's more like 3.5v3. Plus, in many PvE situations you actually outnumber the mobs, so knocking one out can be very important.

More importantly, however, the Mesmer can do things like:

1) Knock out the most important foe. If the Mesmer can knock out the enemy Monk, that can be more valuable than trying to outdamage them. (Of course, outdamaging enemy healing is easier in PvE now than it used to be.) This can even be generalised to knocking out the most dangerous skill - stripping Critical Defenses off Raptors in a largely physical party or Sliver Armor in almost any situation can be worth its weight in gold.

2) A well-played Mesmer can often 'annoy' multiple opponents. If, in an 8v8 situation, the Mesmer can reduce each enemy team member's effectiveness by an average of 10% and still be doing about 50% of the damage of a purely offensive character... that's a small effect on the effectiveness of each, but the net effect is greater than one. (This is where Clumsiness shines - on its own, using this on recharge will stop one out of every ten hits from a sword or axe warrior with an attack speed buff and dishes out some armour-ignoring damage.)